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10-31-24 06:49 PM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - “I didn’t vote for him,” an American once said, “But he’s my president, and I hope he does
  
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FX
Posts: 2599/3775
The difference with Libby is that he was pardoned from doing something that Cheny told him to do.
The Accidental Protege
Posts: 2276/2641
Heh...
Just read this on Moby's journal.
Source

Originally posted by Moby
one of the most fantastic details about the scooter libby commutation
 July 6, 2007

one of the most fantastic details about the scooter libby commutation has to do with one of clinton's pardons.
before leaving office bill clinton pardoned marc rich.
marc rich had been found guilty of tax evasion and other crimes.
and when he was pardoned by bill clinton the right-wing were very upset that bill clinton would pardon an indicted criminal.
so the fantastic irony in all of this is that scooter libby was marc rich's lawyer.
isn't that awesome?
scooter libby, the darling of the gop, was the lawyer for marc rich, a criminal pardoned by bill clinton.
nope, there's nothing at all incestuous about the goings on in d.c, not at all.
it may seem petty, but watching the bush administration and the gop continue to fall apart is really, really entertaining, and it makes for great tragi-comic public farce/theater.
-moby

*shrug* Just thought I'd point it out.
geeogree
Posts: 214/246
Libby wasn't pardoned. He's just not going to jail. He is still guilty of the things he did.
FX
Posts: 2598/3775
The point about Libby being pardoned isn't because of what Libby did, but because Bush told him to do it, then just decided to free him. Bush thinks he can do anything.

And do you even know who Keith Olberman is?
Elara
Posts: 4489/9736
Terrorists need to be fought in Iraq rather than America? Before we invaded Iraq the terrorists that we were fighting were all in Afghanistan. Bush lied or was lied to in order to invade Iraq and that has been proven.

I think the reference to James Madison was rather poignant, because that is what happened in this case. Libby deserved to go to prison, he should not have been pardoned or had his sentence commuted.
Astrophel
Posts: 1794/2724
Originally posted by Vulkar

Oooh, he's going all emotional...if it wasn't all so lame I might have shed a tear...

Pretty obvious he laid us in war, it would hardly be a war if we weren't warring now, would it?

Yeah, he terrorizes fools like you who don't know what they're talking about, and publis articles that are little more than propoganda.


Is the insulting and grammatical pedantry really needed?

No. No it isn't. And using it, even in response to a person who does not and probably will never post here will, based on my past experiences, sour the mood of those in this thread, turning it into yet another shit-filled dramafest.

Let's keep that from happening, k?
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 2371/4541
This guy sounds like he watches too match biased news, and knows too little. He has a couple good points, but most of it is just false, or badly misinterpreted.

*cracks knuckles* I haven't had a good George Bush debate in a while, so I'm going to go through this guys article, point by point. What fun.


“I didn’t vote for him,” an American once said, “But he’s my president, and I hope he does a good job.”

That—on this eve of the 4th of July—is the essence of this democracy, in 17 words. And that is what President Bush threw away yesterday in commuting the sentence of Lewis “Scooter” Libby.


Interesting name, scooter. However, this guy hasn't said anything of worth yet, so I'll let it go on.


The man who said those 17 words—improbably enough—was the actor John Wayne. And Wayne, an ultra-conservative, said them, when he learned of the hair’s-breadth election of John F. Kennedy instead of his personal favorite, Richard Nixon in 1960.

“I didn’t vote for him but he’s my president, and I hope he does a good job.”

The sentiment was doubtlessly expressed earlier, but there is something especially appropriate about hearing it, now, in Wayne’s voice: The crisp matter-of-fact acknowledgement that we have survived, even though for nearly two centuries now, our Commander-in-Chief has also served, simultaneously, as the head of one political party and often the scourge of all others.

We as citizens must, at some point, ignore a president’s partisanship. Not that we may prosper as a nation, not that we may achieve, not that we may lead the world—but merely that we may function.

But just as essential to the seventeen words of John Wayne, is an implicit trust—a sacred trust: That the president for whom so many did not vote, can in turn suspend his political self long enough, and for matters imperative enough, to conduct himself solely for the benefit of the entire Republic.


Oooh, he's going all emotional...if it wasn't all so lame I might have shed a tear...


Our generation’s willingness to state “we didn’t vote for him, but he’s our president, and we hope he does a good job,” was tested in the crucible of history, and earlier than most.

And in circumstances more tragic and threatening. And we did that with which history tasked us.

We enveloped our President in 2001.And those who did not believe he should have been elected—indeed those who did not believe he had been elected—willingly lowered their voices and assented to the sacred oath of non-partisanship.

And George W. Bush took our assent, and re-configured it, and honed it, and shaped it to a razor-sharp point and stabbed this nation in the back with it.


I still hear people talking about that, they never willingly lowered their voices, they just eventually gave up. I still hear about it all the time.


Were there any remaining lingering doubt otherwise, or any remaining lingering hope, it ended yesterday when Mr. Bush commuted the prison sentence of one of his own staffers.

Did so even before the appeals process was complete; did so without as much as a courtesy consultation with the Department of Justice; did so despite what James Madison—at the Constitutional Convention—said about impeaching any president who pardoned or sheltered those who had committed crimes “advised by” that president; did so without the slightest concern that even the most detached of citizens must look at the chain of events and wonder: To what degree was Mr. Libby told: break the law however you wish—the President will keep you out of prison?


I'd be an idiot to think that that was good, but I want to to remember this point, especially the part about how he did it before the appeals process had been complete.


In that moment, Mr. Bush, you broke that fundamental com-pact between yourself and the majority of this nation’s citizens—the ones who did not cast votes for you. In that moment, Mr. Bush, you ceased to be the President of the United States. In that moment, Mr. Bush, you became merely the President of a rabid and irresponsible corner of the Republican Party. And this is too important a time, Sir, to have a commander-in-chief who puts party over nation.


That's not very nice to the republican party...anyone who you don't lie about? Also, I fail to see what's that important about this time...


This has been, of course, the gathering legacy of this Administration. Few of its decisions have escaped the stain of politics. The extraordinary Karl Rove has spoken of “a permanent Republican majority,” as if such a thing—or a permanent Democratic majority—is not antithetical to that upon which rests: our country, our history, our revolution, our freedoms.

Yet our Democracy has survived shrewder men than Karl Rove. And it has survived the frequent stain of politics upon the fabric of government. But this administration, with ever-increasing insistence and almost theocratic zealotry, has turned that stain into a massive oil spill.


No, you have, by making a small pardon into a huge deal that could destroy the entire nation. He made the stain, you created the oil spill. Wait...are stains and oil spills even that related?


The protection of the environment is turned over to those of one political party, who will financially benefit from the rape of the environment.


No...republicans don't benefit from the destruction of the enviroment. In fact, President Bush has authorized thousands of dollars to go to car companies to stop oil feuled vehicles, or at least to create a substitute. On a side note, the reason gas prices are so high is because the democrats tried to tax the oil companies, thus making THEM benefit more from the oil.



The protections of the Constitution are turned over to those of one political party, who believe those protections unnecessary and extravagant and quaint.


Yeah, said the democrats who authorized the ability for companies to take away land from anyone, assuming it could generate more taxes. Freaking hypocrite.


The enforcement of the laws is turned over to those of one political party, who will swear beforehand that they will not enforce those laws.


You find me the republican that swore that laws won't be enforced before being put into office, and I'll show you a pig with wings. Seriously, I will.


The choice between war and peace is turned over to those of one political party, who stand to gain vast wealth by ensuring that there is never peace, but only war.


And yet, with war then there is less oil, because Iraq is no longer a good source of it. So, the republicans benefit from having oil, and yet benefit from not? Strange...


And now, when just one cooked book gets corrected by an honest auditor, when just one trampling of the inherent and inviolable fairness of government is rejected by an impartial judge, when just one wild-eyed partisan is stopped by the figure of blind justice, this President decides that he, and not the law, must prevail.


I think I already adressed this, way to repeat yourself.


I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war.


Pretty obvious he laid us in war, it would hardly be a war if we weren't warring now, would it?


I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.


Actually, if you bother to LISTEN to the news, you'd realize that he openly said, repeatedly, that there isn't a direct connection, even though there was an Iraqi representative who was around during the planning of 9/11. He was caught on film. Way to read the official government documents before giving yourself an opinion.


I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.


I never heard of this, so I'll argue this point after a bit of research. Look forward to it later.


I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.


And I accuse you of insulting their memory. We had to go to Iraq, we could either fight the terrorists in America, or in Iraq. Would you rather have US troopers going around shooting here in America, or in a less populated area that is full of terrorists who have quite clearly stated they wantus to be dead. We can fight Al Qaeda here, or there. Pick your battlefield.

Also, relative to other wars, 3,586 is really a small number. Look at the WWII numbers, or even the Civil War.


I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.


My uncle, and both my grandfathers have a lot of information on this. There are actually a heck of a lot of terrorist attempts every day in America. The Patriot act helps the USA to prevent them. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind someone listening to my phone calls if it meant I would save people's lives.


I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.


Yeah, he terrorizes fools like you who don't know what they're talking about, and publis articles that are little more than propoganda.


I accuse you of exploiting that unreasoning fear, the natural fear of your own people who just want to live their lives in peace, as a political tool to slander your critics and libel your opponents.


...
...
I accuse you of not examining the terrorist attempt on America, especially 9/11. I think that Bush has more to think about than getting reelected. Oh wait...he doesn't need to worry about THAT either.


I accuse you of handing part of this Republic over to a Vice President who is without conscience, and letting him run roughshod over it.


I still don't know where people get all this. Cheney is awesome.

All the rest of his little article is talking about how much he wants Bush to resign. I think I covered all the major points.

So, I'm going to have to ask, other than the pardon of one of Bush's friends, is there really anything he's done badly? The only bad thing he did was pardon someone. I've adressed every other issue here with a resonable explanation, and I have yet to see Bush do much that I actually disagree with.

Also, Rogue, I don't disagree with Bush vetoing the bill about the troops leaving. We leave now, and the lives of those 3586 all go to waste. Nothing happens.

I'll post some reports on what's REALLY going on in Iraq soon. Just realize that there is a lot more than car bombings, and that sort of thing.
Rogue
Posts: 3459/11918
Really I can't help but echo his regard. I've given Bush way too many chances in my book, but the Libby issue sort of pushed me over the edge with him (though I already was pissed that when Senate was passing a deadline on the troop surge in Iraq and Bush exclaimed that no matter what he was going to veto it).

While loyalty is a wonderful trait, I just can't uphold it for a president in whom I've lost complete confidence.
FX
Posts: 2573/3775
Keith Olbermann explains why Bush and Cheny should resign.

Video

Discuss.
Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - “I didn’t vote for him,” an American once said, “But he’s my president, and I hope he does



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