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06-12-24 03:32 PM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Voting | |
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Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 11-21-06 07:13 AM Link | Quote
For a while now then I have noticed several things. One of these things are that too many people vote. Everyone is supposed to vote you say? That may not be a good thing...

I have also noticed that around 60% of people that vote in elections are either #1 idiots, or #2, vote only because of party and don't know what the person they vote for plans to do. Another large portion are illegal immigrants that shouldn't even be here, much less choose how we run.

I'm being unfair you say? Everyone should get a chance to vote? I agree, everyone should get a chance, just not the same type of chance as they get now. If someone votes and they have no idea about who they are voting for other than what's on CNN each evening, or what some friend heard on the radio one morning, how much right do they have to vote?

CNN is biased towards democrats, talk radio is also usually biased towards republicans. How much can you really learn when you only hear news stories that make a living out of reporting only the good or bad things about people. I can't see these people as any more than the first layer for gaining knowledge.

So what's the solution? I for one believe that people should be required to know certain things. For example, the last presidency election. If someone had no idea that Kerry was both pro and against the war in Iraq, then they should know. If they had no idea what position George Bush takes on most issues, they should know.

But how would we have them know? Simple, we don't. We let them learn about it on their own. All the government needs to do is test them. It should be required that each time they try to apply to vote, they have to fill out a form about what they know about each person, and submit it. If they pass with a B or above, they get to vote. C or below, and they don't.

Also, illegals voting? Come on...you know that's wrong.

Anyway, thoughts about this idea?
Lord Alexandor

Knight
Discord Manager








Since: 10-15-06
From: Dayton, OH

Since last post: 1221 days
Last activity: 470 days
Posted on 11-21-06 09:03 AM Link | Quote
An interesting idea, Vulkar, but most people are simply too lazy to go research the candidates. Perhaps, instead of making everyone go look for the information about candidates on their own, there could be a small government run organization that researches the candidates and puts out everything that you need to know about them on a website. That way anyone can reach the information and it could be totally non-partisan, like the courts are supposed to be. Then, the test idea might work.

However, the test would violate constitutional rights that state that all men (and women) have the right to vote for anyone they choose.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 11-21-06 10:39 AM Link | Quote
Actually that is incorrect. There are several things that you cannot use to restrict people form voting. The only ones that are like you said are the fifteenth, ninetheenth, twenty-fourth, and twentysixth.

None of these say that every American should have the right to vote, they only say that you cannot restrict them because of age, gender, paying the poll tax, or race. They said nothing about knowledge.

Although the real problem about that organization is that everyone is biased. It would show up in a positive or negative light as needed. If people are too lazy, they shouldn't be able to vote! I don't want my future in the hands of a homeless drug dealer who has been in jail twice and has a large criminal record.
Belial

Bazu








Since: 01-29-05
From: New Zealand

Since last post: 4202 days
Last activity: 3816 days
Posted on 11-21-06 11:37 AM Link | Quote
I have to disagree with you.

Yeah, a lot of people get their information from biased TV channels, biased newspapers, etc etc. If you like what a person stands for, you vote for them

A lot of people of the democrat party like democrat ideals. That is why they vote for those who are democrats.

Who really cares what they did in the past?

I smoke pot, does that make me a bad person?
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
Last activity: 6032 days
Posted on 11-21-06 05:40 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
For a while now then I have noticed several things. One of these things are that too many people vote. Everyone is supposed to vote you say? That may not be a good thing...

I have also noticed that around 60% of people that vote in elections are either #1 idiots, or #2, vote only because of party and don't know what the person they vote for plans to do. Another large portion are illegal immigrants that shouldn't even be here, much less choose how we run.

I'm being unfair you say? Everyone should get a chance to vote? I agree, everyone should get a chance, just not the same type of chance as they get now. If someone votes and they have no idea about who they are voting for other than what's on CNN each evening, or what some friend heard on the radio one morning, how much right do they have to vote?

CNN is biased towards democrats, talk radio is also usually biased towards republicans. How much can you really learn when you only hear news stories that make a living out of reporting only the good or bad things about people. I can't see these people as any more than the first layer for gaining knowledge.

So what's the solution? I for one believe that people should be required to know certain things. For example, the last presidency election. If someone had no idea that Kerry was both pro and against the war in Iraq, then they should know. If they had no idea what position George Bush takes on most issues, they should know.

But how would we have them know? Simple, we don't. We let them learn about it on their own. All the government needs to do is test them. It should be required that each time they try to apply to vote, they have to fill out a form about what they know about each person, and submit it. If they pass with a B or above, they get to vote. C or below, and they don't.

Also, illegals voting? Come on...you know that's wrong.

Anyway, thoughts about this idea?


I firmly disagree with the resolution put forth that "knowledgeable" people should only be allowed to vote.

Contention 1: The argument in itself is flawed, because my opponent does not define what "knowledgeable" means in the context of voting. Though they state that "knowledgeable" means passing a test, they neglect to note that much of politics is not in fact empirical data, it is highly subjective, and particular to each and every individual. One cannot "measure" knowledge with any sort of "ruler," it is not as simple as seeing if someone knows how to add or subtract.

(As a sidenote, I must note that the reasons behind Kerry's support are not "flip-flop" but a response to additions to a bill, what is often called "pork-belly," calling for additional spending he disapproved of. And about the pro-con stance on the war, wasn't there a lapse of a few years or certain happenings that Kerry would change his views based on? Vulkar himself wouldn't qualify to be one of these knowlegeable voters by his own criterion, though I persay wouldn't think so.)

Contention 2: Assuming that my opponent only wishes to define "knowledgeable" on that which can be clearly defined as positive data, such as knowledge of party associations, history and such, I pose a question: what is the significance of such knowledge? Who is to say that voting for a party member because they are consistant with one's beliefs is wrong? Clearly, the values of people vary immensely, and thus their reasons for voting for someone often vary as well.

Contention 3: When my opponent states that illegal immigrants voting is wrong, they fail to support their contention with any sort of evidence, nor do they state why in fact it is wrong. Furthermore, they do not provide any basis on which it is "wrong." When my oppenent states that "I don't want my future in the hands of a homeless drug dealer who has been in jail twice and has a large criminal record," I'm inclined to think that they are in fact saying that everyone should follow his/her idea of "wrong." This of course would be completely illogical. "Wrong" much like "knowledge" is not something that is consistant from person to person. My idea of what is wrong may be different from yours: "wrong" is normative and subjective, as opposed to positive and objective.



(Last edited by Logos on 11-21-06 08:44 PM)
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 11-22-06 07:55 AM Link | Quote
Contention one: Knowledgeable would be what the person they are voting for takes on certain political issues. Kerry wants to tax the rich more? The voters should know. Kerry won three purple hearts? It doesn't matter, that has nothing to do with his politics. What the voter should know isn't history, only what position the person they are voting for takes. If A politician was once a mass murderer from Russia, then assuming his political ideas were good, I wouldn't care. History would not be on the test, only ideas on current events.

And knowledge isn't really subjective. I'm just saying they have to know what position the guy is taking on a certain issue. I couldn't really care less about what else they know.

Contention two: There are many liberal republicans or conservative democracts. The knowledge matters because if they don't know it, then they have no idea what they are voting for. They could easily, without knowing it, vote for a guy who believes that video games should be illegal. On a side note, there are many politicians that believe that, so it does apply.

Contention three: That wasn't my main point, I was just noting it, and I'm too lazy to argue immigration without it having a seperate thread.
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
Last activity: 6032 days
Posted on 11-23-06 04:08 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
Contention one: Knowledgeable would be what the person they are voting for takes on certain political issues. Kerry wants to tax the rich more? The voters should know. Kerry won three purple hearts? It doesn't matter, that has nothing to do with his politics. What the voter should know isn't history, only what position the person they are voting for takes. If A politician was once a mass murderer from Russia, then assuming his political ideas were good, I wouldn't care. History would not be on the test, only ideas on current events.


That's nonsense. If a serial killer told one they wouldn't kill a person, their ethos would be diminished compared to the average citizen(I wouldn't really believe the serial killer much either, but that's not the point). Likewise, if the Dalai Lama said he wouldn't kill a person, most would believe him a lot more than the average citizen saying so. Ethos matters a lot, especially in politics.


And knowledge isn't really subjective.

I refuse to agree with your definition because it is too subjective for the purpose of this debate. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines knowledge as "the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association." To reiterate, everyone doesn't share the same experience or association that is necessary for knowledge, and therefore their interpretation of knowledge is not the same.
I'm just saying they have to know what position the guy is taking on a certain issue. I couldn't really care less about what else they know.


Contention two: There are many liberal republicans or conservative democracts.
That's democrats, if you wanted to know, and this has no relevance in the context of this paragraph.

The knowledge matters because if they don't know it, then they have no idea what they are voting for. They could easily, without knowing it, vote for a guy who believes that video games should be illegal. On a side note, there are many politicians that believe that, so it does apply.

So? You don't impact this point at all.


Contention three: That wasn't my main point, I was just noting it, and I'm too lazy to argue immigration without it having a seperate thread.


You drop this point, fair enough.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
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Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 149 days
Last activity: 149 days
Posted on 11-28-06 11:15 PM Link | Quote
They used to test people to vote... it was one of the ways they kept blacks from voting in the South after it was illegal to keep them from voting due to race.

You know what you do to learn? Watch debates, which are broadcasted on *gasp* CNN and other news stations! You read that big booklet that comes before the election with information on people and propositions, and the debates for and against them that are written in newspapers.

Instituting a test would decrease voter turnout, not because of people failing, but due to people going "fuck that, I just won't vote." Human apathy is a powerful opponent.

So yeah, I don't think you're idea would work at all.
Logos

Again?
Banned








Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
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Posted on 11-28-06 11:55 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
They used to test people to vote... it was one of the ways they kept blacks from voting in the South after it was illegal to keep them from voting due to race.

You know what you do to learn? Watch debates, which are broadcasted on *gasp* CNN and other news stations! You read that big booklet that comes before the election with information on people and propositions, and the debates for and against them that are written in newspapers.

Instituting a test would decrease voter turnout, not because of people failing, but due to people going "fuck that, I just won't vote." Human apathy is a powerful opponent.

So yeah, I don't think you're idea would work at all.

Just one thing about your case, does it really matter what "people" think?
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

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Last activity: 149 days
Posted on 11-29-06 02:55 AM Link | Quote
In which way do you mean? What the people think about the test? The candidates? What the candidates think? The people arguing for or against a proposition? You need to make yourself a bit clearer.

And that same statement can be applied to the first post in this thread.
Logos

Again?
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Since: 07-24-06

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Posted on 11-29-06 03:02 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
In which way do you mean? What the people think about the test? The candidates? What the candidates think? The people arguing for or against a proposition? You need to make yourself a bit clearer.

And that same statement can be applied to the first post in this thread.

I meant the idea of a democracy.
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 149 days
Last activity: 149 days
Posted on 11-29-06 03:06 AM Link | Quote
*looks at her post for mention of people's thoughts on democracy*

...

*doesn't see a reference to it*

But, if I get what you mean, you are asking if it matters what people think in a democracy then the answer is yes. It should at any rate, since it is supposed to be governed by the people, so I would hope that what people think matters.
Logos

Again?
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Since: 07-24-06

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Last activity: 6032 days
Posted on 11-29-06 04:09 AM Link | Quote
What gives importance to the thoughts and preferences of the masses? Why not eliminate voting and create a system in which the most qualified person receives the job? What validates a democratic system?
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 11-29-06 07:39 AM Link | Quote
First off because I'd rather have a slight impact on todays society, rather than having a corrupt politician decide who gets elected. Besides, a lot of good qualified people would never be put into office if only because they aren't all that famous.

Now, on Elara's comments. I watch the debates. A lot of people watch them. However, what about those that don't have TV and vote? What about those who merely read the article about what happened rather than watching it? What about those people who don't really pay attention to whoever they are voting for in the first place?

Anyway, to be honest, if people refuse to take a test to vote, good riddance. IF they fail the test, then that proves they don't know about who they are voting for. Good riddance.

As for that comment about how it was used against the blacks, my suggestion is that you get 80% right or more. The questions would be multiple choice, and a computer examines the answers. The test would have no questions about race, party, credit score, or anything like that. Besides that, a computer isn't prejudice, it wouldn't care.

Finally, on Logos' comments on knowledge, allow me to define what I mean as knowledge, so that this doesn't turn into a debate over the definition of a word.


acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition


This test would be on how well aquaintedd the voter is with these said facts. No more comments on what knowledge is is neccesary, and this is how I define it, as according to dictionary.com.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
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Posted on 12-02-06 02:58 AM Link | Quote
"Anyway, to be honest, if people refuse to take a test to vote, good riddance. IF they fail the test, then that proves they don't know about who they are voting for. Good riddance."
Might you provide some examples of these questions? I'm really curious. Before I say anything about them, I'd like to know what exactly they might be.

"No more comments on what knowledge is is neccesary"
If you refuse to answer to questions about knowledge, the basis of your case, then your entire case falls. Correct me if I am wrong, but could your entire resolution be summed up as "In a democracy, only knowledgable citizens ought to vote"? Anyways, define what you consider a "democracy" as well, please?

I asked why knowledge is neccessary, too. I for one don't think one can use knowledge as a value, just because a value is something that isn't really debatable, e.g democratic ideals, human agency, justice, and such. One cannot really make the argument that justice isn't necessarily good, but I'm pretty sure I could make the argument that knowledge isn't necessarily good. However, if not your central value, to what end does knowledge achieve?

But in short, like the immigration debate, what really matters is that you're denying them the right to vote, violating the democratic ideal of the people voting, not just the a certain group of people.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 12-02-06 07:19 AM Link | Quote
Okay, I'll use examples from the last election. Some(but not all) of the questions would go like this:

What is Kerry's position on tax reform?

(a) tax the poor more
(b) tax the rich more
(c) increase sales tax
(d) none of the above

What is George W. Bush's supposed plan for the war one terror?

(a) Attack anyone who opposes us.
(b) Make friends with everyone!
(c) Try and negotiate, if the negotiations fail, go to war.
(d) none of the above.

If anyone doesn't know questions like these, or what's discusssed on the debates, then they aren't doing anything other than voting blindly. It would be like walking on a narrow an curved path with a blindfold, unless they know where they're going or what they're doing, they'll fall.

And this is a democratic republic by the way, electing the officials is the republic part. Democracy is making every law by popular vote, where republic is electing officials to make those laws. Our government allows citizens to vote on some things, like bonds a few years ago in my state.
Logos

Again?
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Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
Last activity: 6032 days
Posted on 12-02-06 06:57 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
Okay, I'll use examples from the last election. Some(but not all) of the questions would go like this:

What is Kerry's position on tax reform?

(a) tax the poor more
(b) tax the rich more
(c) increase sales tax
(d) none of the above

What is George W. Bush's supposed plan for the war one terror?

(a) Attack anyone who opposes us.
(b) Make friends with everyone!
(c) Try and negotiate, if the negotiations fail, go to war.
(d) none of the above.

If anyone doesn't know questions like these, or what's discusssed on the debates, then they aren't doing anything other than voting blindly. It would be like walking on a narrow an curved path with a blindfold, unless they know where they're going or what they're doing, they'll fall.

And this is a democratic republic by the way, electing the officials is the republic part. Democracy is making every law by popular vote, where republic is electing officials to make those laws. Our government allows citizens to vote on some things, like bonds a few years ago in my state.

Seeing as you don't even know the proper terminology for the questions, what would give you the right to vote? No offense, of course. Who's to say that only those with a degree in political sciences should be able to vote?
And read my post above, please?
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

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Posted on 12-02-06 08:43 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
For a while now then I have noticed several things. One of these things are that too many people vote.


and from there, you've lost me. too many people vote? Wow... if anything, too little people vote. everything you've said after that, is null/void and ridiculous.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 246 days
Last activity: 228 days
Posted on 12-04-06 07:22 AM Link | Quote
Read the rest of my post. Perhaps not too many, but msot definitaly too many people that don't know what they're voting for. For them it's like seeing a collection of snakes, they can pick one up, or they can not. Assume for the scenario and sake of discussion that they know nothing about how to identify poisonous snakes. If they are smart, they'll leave them all alone. But if they choose to pick one up, it could be poisonous, or it could not be. These guys are picking up snakes when they vote. Then there are the intelligent people, who can pick up whatever snake they want without getting killed, because they know what snakes are poisonous.

The intelligent people are quite clearly those who know what they're voting for, the people who pick up snakes without know what they are are those who vote without knowing about who they vote for.

And Logos, other than why I'm chosing knowledge as an ideal, what did I not adress in your post? Why knowledge is an ideal I think is adressed in my above paragraphs. Simply put, for them to vote is them picking up a poisonous snake.
Logos

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Since: 07-24-06

Since last post: 5942 days
Last activity: 6032 days
Posted on 12-04-06 10:12 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar
Read the rest of my post. Perhaps not too many, but msot definitaly too many people that don't know what they're voting for. For them it's like seeing a collection of snakes, they can pick one up, or they can not. Assume for the scenario and sake of discussion that they know nothing about how to identify poisonous snakes. If they are smart, they'll leave them all alone. But if they choose to pick one up, it could be poisonous, or it could not be. These guys are picking up snakes when they vote. Then there are the intelligent people, who can pick up whatever snake they want without getting killed, because they know what snakes are poisonous.

The intelligent people are quite clearly those who know what they're voting for, the people who pick up snakes without know what they are are those who vote without knowing about who they vote for.

And Logos, other than why I'm chosing knowledge as an ideal, what did I not adress in your post? Why knowledge is an ideal I think is adressed in my above paragraphs. Simply put, for them to vote is them picking up a poisonous snake.

If one must know, "tax the poor more" isn't the correct way to say it, one might say increase regressive taxes. Same think for the statement "tax the rich more," it's called increase progressive taxes. An increase in proportional taxes is what you might want to say for question c. What I'm trying to make clear is that where is the line for "knowledgable"?
And in a democratic state, I would think the value of democracy outweighs knowledge.
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